3. Combination Action, part 1

Find out what all those theatre organ console button do
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:58 am

Thanks Rick

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by Jim Henry » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:30 am

greenfox wrote:No, there are no PC keyboard or Midi settings directly linked to the memory A1/S1 through 5 etc.
There are MIDI messages that directly set the memory levels but I don´t remember what at the moment. :oops:

I think there is a way to set the memory level efficiently from the keyboard too. It was a feature Charlie Lynn Walls asked for years ago. I don´t remember the details on this either. :oops: :oops:
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by greenfox » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:36 pm

Jim Henry wrote: There are MIDI messages that directly set the memory levels but I don´t remember what at the moment. :oops:

I think there is a way to set the memory level efficiently from the keyboard too. It was a feature Charlie Lynn Walls asked for years ago. I don´t remember the details on this either. :oops: :oops:
My apologies Jim, I try not to peddle untruths.

I have taken a look through all the settings tabs. I just noticed that under the "Expression" tab there is a setting for "Memory Level". This looks like it would allow memory levels to be changed using a Midi CC message often referred to as an analogue Midi signal. This could probably be configured similar to the TAB CC messages to be specific from a switch input.

On the computer "QWERTY" keyboard, "=" triggers the MEM piston, then various keys activate the various "S" and "A" pistons.

Under the "Pistons" tab in Miditzer Settings there is a tick box for "Bank Select Sets Memory Level" but I can't find any specific instructions on this.

Regards
Rick
Last edited by greenfox on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rick
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:37 pm

ok lol now on the subject of midi for stops/pistons i got tom scarff working on it but need a lillte clarification.... heres a reply i got from him.....

"I have looked at your piston list. Perhaps you could explain how they work?


My understanding is for example for the STOP CONTROL CHANGE ASSIGNMENTS

for 16 TUBA transmit MIDI CC 81 with a value of 0 to switch the STOP CONTROL CHANGE ON and

transmit MIDI CC 80 with a value of 0 to switch the STOP CONTROL CHANGE OFF and


So what does the 255 represent for ON and OFF? "

any help?

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by Jim Henry » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:00 am

greenfox wrote:My apologies Jim, I try not to peddle untruths.
No need to apologize. What we are talking about here are extremely obscure, poorly documented features.

You have more than redeemed yourself by remembering/discovering more details than I did in my post to boot.

You are correct about MIDI Bank Select being the way to set the memory level using MIDI if the "Direct MIDI Mem Lvl Select" box on the Pistons tab is checked. MIDI Bank Select is MIDI CC (Control Change) 0. The values of 0 through 9 select the 10 memory levels.

You can also use MIDI PC (Program Change) to go directly to more stored combinations than are in the selected memory level. The PC values in the PC +1 column on the Piston tab of the Settings will select combinations in the next higher memory level from the one selected. This is intended primarily for consoles that have more pistons than the Miditzer Style being controlled.

You are also correct about using the = to activate the MEM piston followed by [F1] to [F5] to select S1 to S5 and by 1 to 5 to select A1 to A5.
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by Jim Henry » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:20 am

markey111 wrote:on the subject of midi for stops/pistons
MIDI for pistons is quite straightforward and almost according to MIDI spec. MIDI for stops is not at all according to MIDI spec. Don't get them muddled up in your thinking because it will make your head explode. Really, it will.

From the balance of the post I assume you intended to ask about MIDI stop control. MIDI CC (Control Change) messages are intended to transmit values from things like volume pedals and modulation wheels that can provide a range of values, 0 to 127. A MIDI compliant switch can send a MIDI CC message using a value of 0-63 for off and 64-127 for on.

The Miditzer uses MIDI CC to send stop values in a non-standard way. All the values used are configurable so all that can be said generally is that the Miditzer will recognize a specific MIDI CC controller plus channel plus value as a command to turn a single stop on or off.

The default configuration is to use MIDI CC controller 81 on channel 16 to turn stops on and MIDI CC controller 80 on channel 16 to turn stops off. The value determines which stop is controlled.

I don't understand the question about what 255 represents because MIDI only uses values of 0-127 and because what a value means in MIDI depends on where the value is used. I assume you are referring to the values you see in the "Val" columns on the Stops tab in the Miditzer Settings. If you followed what I have said above then you now realize that those are arbitrary values.
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:37 pm

just a little more clarification regarding programme change assignments for the pistons
i think we got the stops sorted and i have explained how the pistons work as best i can heres a reply from tom scarff

I have been looking at your design request and I could provide you with a unit that can take control 128 switches/pistons for CC80,81 and 71 switches/pistons for CC82,83. This would be a total of 199 switches/pistons.

The Expression CC 11, Volume CC7 and Modulation CC1 are normally controlled by potentiometers each with a range of 0 to 127. CC0 has also a range of 0 to 127 and is usually used as Bank Select (in conjunction with Program Change messages)

The program Change messages 0 to 127 but usually only one can operate at any time and changes the sound each time. So I am not sure how they can be grouped as PC +0, PC +1, PC +2 etc Does it mean you switch one PC ON after the other?

So for instance for PIston Name Great:pp you transmit PC 0 then PC33 and then PC66??
ignore the expression ,need help mainly with the latter part
does it make sense to anyone ??/ lol

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by Jim Henry » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:02 pm

Tom's understanding of the standard way a PC works is correct. Every time a PC is sent to the Miditzer the sound will change. The only difference between a standard MIDI device and the Miditzer is that a standard device will just switch from one sound to another, such as 8' Trumpet to 8' Flute. The Miditzer adds a layer so that the PC triggers a piston and the change is from one combination of sounds to another based on what has been set on the piston. This simple change makes MIDI PC much more powerful.

To get to Tom's question, the grouping of PC +0 etc. means absolutely nothing as far as his end of things in concerned. It is just a way of dealing with the fact that there are 128 MIDI PC values and 23 pistons on the 216. With the memory levels there are effectively 230 pistons. So I just allow PC values to wrap their way up the memory levels so that you can use most (all? don't remember) of the 128 MIDI PC values to create a real console with more than 23 pistons and have them all do something meaningful.

If the memory level is set to S1, PC 0 will trigger Solo PP by default. PC 22 will trigger Ped 3. PC 23 will trigger Solo PP in the S2 memory level. +1 does not refer to S2 specifically but rather to the next higher memory level than the one selected.

If you have 46 pistons sending PC 0 to PC 45, all 46 piston can trigger a different combination. On top of that you still have 5 distinct and useful memory levels--S1, S3, S5, A2, and A4.

Not to toot my own horn but the combination action of the Miditzer is incredibly powerful. If you use it to its fullest, you should be able to get along pretty well without having stop tabs. TPO pros rarely use the stop tabs if they have a fully operational combination action. And they get very cranky if they don't have a fully operational combination action. The Foort Moller at the Pasadena Civic Auditorium was branded unplayable just because of problems with its combination action.
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:21 am

thanks Jim i more or less explained that to tom just needed to clarify the pc=0 etc bit i sent him your reply.
now you opened a new can o worms lol regarding stops.....
suppose i got all the stops and pistons fully functional..how would i turn a stop off if it was engaged by a piston for example... i engage a great piston which includes say 16' tibia
would i be able to turn off that stop manually or would the piston keep it engaged? would i need to engage the stop on the console then turn it off, as there would obviously be no action physically turning the stop on when engaged by the piston

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by bdalton » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:30 am

suppose i got all the stops and pistons fully functional..how would i turn a stop off if it was engaged by a piston for example... i engage a great piston which includes say 16' tibia
would i be able to turn off that stop manually or would the piston keep it engaged? would i need to engage the stop on the console then turn it off, as there would obviously be no action physically turning the stop on when engaged by the piston
Yeap, that's the problem which Graham (moonskin) and I worked so hard on to find a solution to.
Eventually succeeding as I expect you've read.

Cheers and good luck.

Barry :P
Barry

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