3. Combination Action, part 1

Find out what all those theatre organ console button do
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greenfox
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by greenfox » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:24 pm

markey111 wrote:right so my great top rail right to left would be solo to great.. thru to piano 16 then fife 1 to tuba 4
bottom rail right to left 16 vox to 16 horn , 8 kin to to 8 horn, 5 1/3 tib to 8 oboe and so on

There are 3x key principles in the tab layout. 1/ Lowest to highest pitch left to right. 2/ Within each pitch, is loudest to softest left to right. 3/ then percussions and couplers further to the right.

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:46 am

another reply from tom

Thank you for the very comprehensive explanations. They are certainly using MIDI in a vey clever, if complicated, way. So what I need in order to complete a design for you is the list of switches/pistons/footswiches and their associated MIDI command. I am fairly happy with the Stop Control Change Assignments, where each switch/piston has a MIDI Control Change associated with ON and OFF, plus the the 8 toys ( T1-T8 which would be non latching foot switches).

So I just need to know what MIDI switches you want to use with MIDI Program Change? Is it just 128 switches which select MIDI Program Change 0 to 127? (Sorry about my ignorance but I would like to understand it)

Also how do you want to implement MIDI Control Change CC0? (It can have 0 to 127 choices, how do you want to select them?)

any help with this i'm not sure what he means... did i see a spreadsheet for the 216 with this info somewhere/ is there one for the 260
Jim Henry wrote:
markey111 wrote:on the subject of midi for stops/pistons
MIDI for pistons is quite straightforward and almost according to MIDI spec. MIDI for stops is not at all according to MIDI spec. Don't get them muddled up in your thinking because it will make your head explode. Really, it will.

From the balance of the post I assume you intended to ask about MIDI stop control. MIDI CC (Control Change) messages are intended to transmit values from things like volume pedals and modulation wheels that can provide a range of values, 0 to 127. A MIDI compliant switch can send a MIDI CC message using a value of 0-63 for off and 64-127 for on.

The Miditzer uses MIDI CC to send stop values in a non-standard way. All the values used are configurable so all that can be said generally is that the Miditzer will recognize a specific MIDI CC controller plus channel plus value as a command to turn a single stop on or off.

The default configuration is to use MIDI CC controller 81 on channel 16 to turn stops on and MIDI CC controller 80 on channel 16 to turn stops off. The value determines which stop is controlled.

I don't understand the question about what 255 represents because MIDI only uses values of 0-127 and because what a value means in MIDI depends on where the value is used. I assume you are referring to the values you see in the "Val" columns on the Stops tab in the Miditzer Settings. If you followed what I have said above then you now realize that those are arbitrary values.

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by greenfox » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:42 am

markey111 wrote:another reply from tom
any help with this i'm not sure what he means... did i see a spreadsheet for the 216 with this info somewhere/ is there one for the 260
In Miditzer 216 Settings, go to the "Stops" Tab, Click the button "Export All Controls"

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:06 am

yes got that sent a full csv for the 260
just dont understand what he means...

"So I just need to know what MIDI switches you want to use with MIDI Program Change? Is it just 128 switches which select MIDI Program Change 0 to 127? (Sorry about my ignorance but I would like to understand it)"
does he mean what physical switches on the console ie, spst toggle switch or switching on the midi board i understand the spread sheet ,that it is cc 81 val 0 (on) cc 80 val 0 (off) for tuba 16' great
down to pedal 8' flute when it changes to 83 val 0 82 val 0 on/off etc''...

dont know what he means here...
"Also how do you want to implement MIDI Control Change CC0? (It can have 0 to 127 choices, how do you want to select them?)"
again does he mean physical switches for pistons which would me momentory on/off

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:29 am

ok so no its not the physical switches its midi messages

reply from tom ignore the potentiometer input i have them already although everything on one board might be good

"No, I wanted to confirm what MIDI message you want associated with each switch. So I will try and suggest what I think you want:

128 switches/pistons for CC80,81 and
71 switches/pistons for CC82,83.
128 switches/pistons for PC0 to PC127

3 potentiometer inputs for Expression CC 11, Volume CC7 and Modulation CC1

128 switches for CC0 Bank select choices.

Is this correct?"


given that reply
i can see that 128 switches/pistons for CC80,81 and
71 switches/pistons for CC82,83 is correct
would i need 128 switches/pistons for PC0 to PC127 and what do they do?
same for 128 switches for CC0 Bank select choices

i dont understand the settings for the pistons can someone tell me what the pc+0 pc+1 pc+2 means (thats for me not tom lol)

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by Jim Henry » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:42 am

The grouping of PC +0 etc. is just a way of dealing with the fact that there are 128 MIDI PC values and 23 pistons on the 216 (33 on the 260SP). With the memory levels there are effectively 230 (330) pistons. So I just allow PC values to wrap their way up the memory levels so that you can use most of the 128 MIDI PC values to create a real console with more than 23 (33) pistons and have them all do something meaningful.

I would suggest the you use the same number of pistons as are on the on-screen console and use the default values for what is sent. You don't have to be concerned with anything other than the PC +0 column for this. Using the 260SP as the model, you want
33 pistons sending PC0 to PC32 and
10 pistons sending PC118 to PC127 for RES, MEM, and CAN plus divisional cancels

You don't necessarily have to use all 43 pistons but you'll have the electronics for it if you want to. The divisional cancels, and the general cancel for that matter, are not standard on unaltered Wurlitzers. The divisional cancel is often triggered by pressing the division name plate.
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:35 pm

right i get the PC0 etc bit now that will help when wiring and never knew there was a cancel on the division plate now what does tom mean by " 128 switches for CC0 bank select choices" do i need them?


if i use pc0 for physical pistons and i select another memory level either with mem or on screen will my console pistons control the different memory level?

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by Jim Henry » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:57 pm

Yes, the pistons always control combinations relative to the selected memory level. If you confine yourself to just pistons configured in the +0 column then you will be using only combinations stored in the currently selected memory level.

You could use buttons to directly select memory levels with CC0 Bank Select. However I wouldn't bother. MEM followed by one of the regular pistons is easy enough for memory level selection.
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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by markey111 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:13 pm

great so i dont need the 128 switches for cc0 memory as tom asked (or suggested) or do they perform another fuction as well (got to have the board design right the first time lol)

my board would need to be;
128 switches for stops CC80,81 and
71 switches for stops/trems CC82,83.
128 switches for pistons PC0 to PC127

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Re: 3. Combination Action, part 1

Post by Jim Henry » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:20 pm

I'm afraid I'm going to be a bit harsh. Please don't take this the wrong way. I am concerned that you and Tom don't seem to "get it" after multiple explanations. That worries me as you move toward implementing hardware.

Most people here have used the Midibox, which does require you assemble the electronics and which you may be uncomfortable with. Midibox can be reconfigured by the user so we don't have the problem of people learning as they go with that system. And there is a lot of collective knowledge about that system amongst the members of this Forum.

You are chosing to use a system that few here have experience with and which is apparently not configurable once delivered to you. That means that you need to be very sure of what you want when you order the hardware. I am not convinced that you are going to get to that point anytime soon. My quick assessment of your most recent proposal is that it is still not right. While I am willing to put in a lot of time to help people understand the Miditzer so they can carry out their projects, I am not in a position to go so far as to design a system for them.

At this point, unless someone else wants to step in and give you further suggestions, I am going to suggest that you go back and reread everything very carefully. Everything you need has been explained above.

Experiment as necessary to gain understanding and experience with how thing work. You can use tools such as Bome's Mouse Keyboard and/or MIDI-OX to generate all the MIDI messages that your hardware will generate. Use a virtual MIDI cable such as LoopBe1 or MidiYoke to connect Bome's or MIDI-OX to the Miditzer. You can see what effect the MIDI control command have on the Miditzer screen.

Until you can do everything you want to do using virtual tools and understand why things are doing what they do, I wouldn't recommend spending money on hardware. I honestly believe that you will be much better off in the long run if you endure the pain of learning now with virtual tools that are free and flexible before spending money on inflexible hardware.
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