Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Currently alpha test. Topics specific to the 160C.
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Re: Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Post by rmac » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:49 pm

I find the same thing on the 216. I suspect what you are hearing is the delay in the lower pipes to speak. The reeds are less likely to have this problem.

Bob

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Re: Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Post by Jim Henry » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:14 am

The 16' Bass is from the Open Diapason rank.

The 16' Bourdon is from the Flute rank.

The 8' Cello in the Pedal. the 16' Cello (Tenor C) in the Accompaniment, and the 4' Salicet are all from the Salicional rank. Tenor C means the rank ends at Tenor C, the second lowest C on the keyboard; the bottom octave is silent.

As best I could tell in a quick test, the volume of the 16' Bass on the 160C was the same as the 16' Diaphone on the 216 as were the two 16' Bourdons.

As to why the bottom octave of the 16' is lower in volume than the 8' bottom octave, the bottom octave of the 16' pitch is a very low frequency, roughly 32 to 64 Hz. You need a very good sound system designed for an electronic organ to effectively reproduce those low pitches. You feel those notes as much as you hear them.
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Re: Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Post by Ted Zick » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:57 pm

I find the same thing on the 216. I suspect what you are hearing is the delay in the lower pipes to speak. The reeds are less likely to have this problem.

Bob


Bob,

Thanks for you input. I do not have the same problem on the 216. On my theater system the 216 base sound is load and very clear and is "feelable".

Ted

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Re: Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Post by Ted Zick » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:17 pm

Jim,
As to why the bottom octave of the 16' is lower in volume than the 8' bottom octave, the bottom octave of the 16' pitch is a very low frequency, roughly 32 to 64 Hz. You need a very good sound system designed for an electronic organ to effectively reproduce those low pitches. You feel those notes as much as you hear them.
Thanks for the information on the rank vs stop relationships. Is there a rank to stop relationship table or some way in which I could determine it myself?


As to the sound system. When I purchased the sound system for my analog Schober Recital Organ, I made a test CD using very low frequencies about 20 cycles to very high frequencies about 30,000 cycles and also recorded a variety of instrument recordings ranging from several pipe organs playing very low frequencies as well as a variety of brass, woodwind and string recordings. I tested for frequency response by ear and the sound quality for listening comfortability of the entire test CD. I found ony the Sony DAV FX500 met my requirements and reproduced that sound on my Recital Organ and surround sound recordings of other instruments. This is the sound system I am currently using on the MidiTzer.

If the 216 did not sound so good on it and the 160C using Midi downloads from the MidiTzer forum I guess I would not suspect a problem. But when I play the 216, all three manuals including the pedal produce outstanding sound but the 160C shows this problem only when I play it through my own keyboards. In fact the volume of the 16 ft pedal stops alone is overwhelmed by the voices of the other keyboards unless I add the other three stops and then it is still not to my satisfaction.

I must have an audio frequency problem between my pedals and the MGB encoder or from there to the PC or the SB Live Sound Card to the Sony DAV. I will focus on that aspect for now and experiment with rank volume changes on those stops. Will post any discoveries or solutions.

Thnaks for your help.

Ted Zick

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Re: Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Post by Jim Henry » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:26 pm

I don't know of a table of chart of stop to rank relationships. The way to determine it for yourself is to play two stops on different manuals, or in succession on one manual, with the appropriate relationship of the played keys so that you can hear if the notes are the same. For example, on the 160C play the 16' Bass on the pedal high G followed by the 8' Open Diapason on the Accompaniment G an octave and a half above middle C. Should be obvious they are the same pipe.

I am puzzled by the difference you are experiencing between the 160C and the 216. To knock out a few things, verify that the crescendo is completely off on the 216--make sure you hear nothing if all the stops are off. Make sure the swell pedal is fully open on both when you are doing comparisons. Make sure the Expression settings are the same on both models. Make sure there are no "odd" settings or sound font selections on the FluidSynth tab. Try comparing the two using the mouse to click things on the screen. Let's us know whether or not you find anything in any of these areas. It will at least help to eliminate some variables.
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Re: Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Post by Ted Zick » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:25 pm

Jim,

Part of the problem with the 160C pedal stop volume is indeed related to frequency response.

Up to now I have let the Creative Software frequency settings "ride on Neutral" settings. After trying many things in the MidiTzer Settings I returned all to the Base Camp settings in MidiTzer. Then I worried the Creative Settings and by changing the frequency filters to increase the lower frequencies considerably the volume of the two lowest frequency pedal stops increased and where causing extensive vibration to the surrounding environment.

Unfortunately I tried a similar experiment using the creative synth player and found the exact reverse sound situation. The Pedal volume of the Pedals, using a single font for all three keyboards, were several times louder than the other two. I will work with this for a while to see if the stop font shows any pattern.

I am using a Midi Solutions Quadra-Merge for the three MIDI inputs using channel change to separate the keyboard inputs. Channel 1 for the top 61 note keyboard, Channel 2 for the Piano 76 note keyboard and Channel 3 for the Pedal board. The only other unique situation between the keyboards is that the upper keyboards are using Yamaha generated MIDI and the pedal a MGB Pedal encoder. I observed your recommendation to "NOT" use a merge device too late so am wondering if it may have some impact?

The other thing I will explore: is the Creative SB Live card is transmitting the S/PDIF Coaxial signal to the Sony Theater system. If MidiTzer is sending a stereo signal and I have the Card set as digital output only is the signal being transferred in a correct manner to the Sony decoder? Everything I have read on this subject and the sound of the output on the surround speakers seems that everything is correct on this front.

Anyway, Thanks for your input and feedback. I will not have a lot of time to pursue much on this until fall settles in. Gardening and lawn care are my current priorities.

Ted Zick

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Re: Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Post by Jim Henry » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:13 pm

Ted Zick wrote:I observed your recommendation to "NOT" use a merge device too late so am wondering if it may have some impact?
The only reason I recommend against a MIDI Merge device is because it is almost always a more expensive solution than a MIDI-USB interface with the required number of MIDI inputs. If a MIDI Merge were to cause problems, it almost certainly would be in the form of dropped notes, which might manifest themselves as ciphers (notes stuck on because the note off was lost). I doubt that the MIDI Merge is a factor in the issues you are seeing.
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Re: Going on with the MidiTzer 160C

Post by Ted Zick » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:03 am

In Jim Henry's post of July 12 2012
As best I could tell in a quick test, the volume of the 16' Bass on the 160C was the same as the 16' Diaphone on the 216 as were the two 16' Bourdons.

As to why the bottom octave of the 16' is lower in volume than the 8' bottom octave, the bottom octave of the 16' pitch is a very low frequency, roughly 32 to 64 Hz. You need a very good sound system designed for an electronic organ to effectively reproduce those low pitches. You feel those notes as much as you hear them.
I had time yesterday to make the following tests on the 160C

Loaded the 160C on a totally different PC running XP Home with 4GB of RAM
and boot camp settings

The sound card is the internal ACER Realtek HD Audio with Driver Version 5.10.01.5859
Direct X 9.0 --all equalizer settings set a 0 or neutral.
.
The amplifier is a JVC stereo AMP with no effects applied and good bookshelf speakers and no subwoofer..

The initial sound using only the 16' Bass stop in the Open Diapason rank and MidiTzer pedal volume at an off position

The sound was barely audible on the amplifier with a mid volume setting.

Increasing the volume pedal to full did little to increase volume with no change in the JVC settings.

I then increased the MidiTzer setting Rank volume to 16 from the base setting of 12 and repeated the test with the MidiTzer pedal at zero and full with only minor improvements in volume.

Added the 16 foot Bourdon and repeated the above tests with both stops. The volume was louder but not up to my expectations.

Adding the 8 foot open and repeating the above tests the volume was normally carried by the 8 foot stop with negligible volume decrease when I turned off the 16 foot stops.

My assumption at that point was that the frequency must be the issue as Jim suggested.

I returned to base camp settings and changed the Realtek Equalizer settings to amplify the lowest four frequency settings (one at a time) and found substantial increase in volume at the lowest frequency increases. I believe that this confirms the low frequency issue is with those two stops in the 16 foot range of frequency. There is, however, a major lower volume on the two 16 foot stops in the pedal area compared to any other stop in the solo or accompaniment stops. I have yet to do the same tests on all 16 foot stops on the other two manuals. I suspect they will have similar results.

I will focus my attention on further tests along those lines. I confirmed with Sony that the theater system lowest frequency spec is 100 cps and not lower as I had thought.

My next step will be to change a similar stop from the 216 sound font in the 160C to see if the same issues occur or if the problem is unique to the 160C 16 foot stops.

I guess the next approach is to look for a sound system that is "designed for an electronic Organ".

Thanks for any feedback.

Ted Zick

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